Playoffs Deliver, Another Ruling

Good afternoon MML, Hez here, back again with controversy. Before we begin I’ll share this brief transcript from the MML Offices.

Preach: Hez, Where are you…..OH GOD, What are you doing?

Hezekiah_87: nuthin!

Preach: Are you eating a jar of glue with a popsicle stick…..Nevermind that, we have another controversy, to the typewriter, peon.

Thunden: How many times are we going to have to do this?

Hez: As many times at the Reptile Dysfunction lose in season 5, I can tell you that much.

SeriousJest: This has to be a record for post-season controversy, let me check the books!

*The sound of thick glasses being pushed up onto the brim of a nose with a forefinger can be heard from SeriousJest’s Desk*

Preach: Just write the report, and make sure to tell everyone how much I love Gnomes.


Okay MML, this is getting old.  We debated whether or not to even issue a ruling here, but given that we’ve already done one this post-season, and did not post any kind of deterrent to prevent this from happening again, we felt it was fair.  So let’s clear some things up before we begin.

If this was not a post-season match, it most likely would not have even been a blip on our radar.  We have high expectations for our coaches and we expect you all to be able to solve issues like this among yourself.  In the past the MML as a rule would only reset matches if both parties agreed to it.  Going forward we want all coaches to understand that a board ruling on resetting a match should be a complete and total absolute rarity.  We have no by-laws or rules concerning that issue at the moment and we don’t want to have to make one.  Everyone thinks they are an exception, but they shouldn’t. Dare I say this is absolutely the last time we will do this for season 4 and if we have to do it for season 5 we will be extremely unhappy.  Please don’t make us do this again. Above all, please don’t make us come up with a ruleset and a process for this to take place. It should be rare and obvious when something like this needs to occur, not something that occurs with every small oddity.

Clear as mud? Good! Let’s begin.

In the semifinals of the season 4 playoffs, Coach Sestonn and Coach Caven played a very tight match to a 1-1 draw at the end of regulation. Our issue comes in on the coin flip of OT. Coach Caven argues he won the toss (true) and selected to receive the ball. However when the OT began he was the kicking team.  Coach Sestonn then received the ball and won in OT.  Coach Caven requested a replay, due to the glitch, and was denied one. He then approached the board asking for a ruling.

As per our process last time, let’s ask ourselves some questions.

  1. Is this a known Glitch?
  2. Can we prove this was a glitch? Does it matter?
  3. What are the consequences for the league moving forward if a replay is granted?
  4. What are the consequences for the league moving forward if a replay is not granted?

Question 1….ehhhh, Maybe? We don’t really know. There is some evidence offered that it might be, however I nor anyone else were able to uncover concrete evidence that this is a known bug.

Question 2, Can we prove this was a Glitch? Does it matter? Let’s assume it is, can we prove that Caven did in fact select to receive. The answer is no. All we have is Caven’s word that he did in fact select receive and it was not a misclick. For what it is worth we believe him.  We believe either he misclicked, and did not realize it, or it was a glitch. However, because the only replay of the game available is not from Caven’s POV, we can not determine with 100% accuracy what happened.  That being said, let’s assume we could, let’s just say Caven broadcast the game as well and the replay showed that he did in fact elect to receive.  Would we want to reset the game. This is touchy, but we feel that it is not the league’s place to police Cyanide’s issues. Especially considering a complete game was played.  We feel that even though it hurt his chances of winning, it did not remove his chance to win the game completely and Caven was still in a position where he could have won.  If we begin to make rulings to fix the game in regards to it’s poor programming, we are setting ourselves up for a bad time.  This is why it is super important for coaches to come to a consensus on game breaking glitch issues.  While this particular issue sucks, we do not feel it was game breaking.

What are the consequences for the league moving forward if a replay is granted?

Granting a replay for a glitch, that can not actually be proven will set the league up for trouble.  All it takes is one wise-guy coach to roll double skulls and then claim, “well I pressed reroll but it didn’t let me reroll” before we are in over our heads. While this legitimately may have been a glitch, we can not set the precedence to reset games over unprovable/replicatable glitches. Especially considering a full game was played and while the glitch did hamper Caven’s odds of winning, it did not remove them completely.

What are the consequences for the league moving forward if a replay is not granted? Minor consequences are to be had if we don’t grant the replay. We have another playoff controversy and we have another cloud over this year’s playoffs. However, we feel this is the path of least resistance and the absolute correct thing to do.

Final Ruling : Game will stand. No replay.

Authors note: Coach Sestonn did not participate in any discussion regarding this decision. Coach Sacerdotalist was also absent from this vote as he still is a playoff coach.  Also, some events from the transcript posted above may be embellished. Except the part about how much Preach loves Gnomes.


  1. thanks for posting this hez. I can definitely see all sides in this fiasco and understand why you can’t reset this, that being said it sucks to be in caven’s shoes, and if the game was reset i guarantee you we will eventually get the scenario described. all in all it sucks that the coaches board had to make a ruling. time to go kill the truth in aos

  2. Ok, not THIS posting is far more insulting than what Preach gave to me. The first issue I have with this is that we couldn’t come to an agreement?! Seriously, when will two coaches ever agree to replay when one has won (won’t replay) and one has lost (will replay)? I am on the record here and now saying that if the positions were reversed, I would have replayed. I am confident in my abilities as a coach. Second, Sestonn was the one that produced the link to THE EXACT SAME THING THAT HAPPENED ON PC. It is a known bug. Acting like I just made it up or misclicked really puts me on the defensive, because it does in fact question my integrity. Third, NOT GAME BREAKING? I guarantee you, if I had received the ball like I asked, I would have won, not lost. Overtime is sudden death, and receiving gives a MUCH greater advantage to the team that starts with the ball. It’s not even a question. It is laughable that you say “it hurt my chances, but not by much.” I am now even more aggravated than I was after it happened.

    This could have, and should have, been addressed more properly. If it was a regular season game, you are correct, it wouldn’t have happened, because there is no overtime in regular season.

    If you feel like I misclicked, I can rightfully feel like you colluded with Sestonn because he is on the board. I know, or at least hope, that is not the case.

    And I think what upsets me the most here, is that your post infers that all this was avoidable. It was not, because it was a glitch that cheated me out of first possession. I was told that integrity is important to some of you because you put so much time into this league. Well, we put just as much time into our teams, not to mention making time to play the games, and expect, and deserve, fair decisions. Sure, it is a cyanide issue, but the MML uses cyanides game to conduct it’s league, and therefore becomes an MML issue. I now truly feel that this is a complete and utter failure in the decision making process. I was almost good with it, until this was posted. I would never, and I repeat, NEVER claim an issue wasn’t true if I knew it wasn’t. I coach and teach kids for a living, and one of my messages to them is always be honest, integrity and your word are all you really have.

    There is nothing I can do about this, and in honesty, looking back, there was nothing I could do about it, short of my opponent agreeing to replay. That is something you will rarely get in a playoff situation. We’ve already seen it twice.

  3. Caven,

    Regarding the integrity issue, I would submit that either you missed Hez’s point, or it wasn’t as clearly conveyed as the rest of us, who knew what he was trying to say based on our discussions, thought. We could not approach this from the perspective of whether or not we believe you personally to be an honest person. That would launch us into a dangerous slippery slope. Hez specifically said that we did not believe you were lying. However, there is countless literature out there on the subject of perception, especially as it pertains to hand-eye-coordination and in a game that is played out online, which sometimes causes delays or doesn’t register a controller input. Bottom line, you cannot be 100% sure that you selected what you intended to select. And even if you could, the Board agreeing to take your word for it means that we would also have to take everyone else’s word for it down the line, lest we get into the business of assigning people honesty ratings.

    Further, as Hez pointed out, the Board’s current stance on these matters is that we should only get involved in the most extreme situations, in which the need for a reset is so egregious that we have to step in. However, we would also probably agree that it is worth coming up with some basic guidelines upon which coaches should base their decision whether to replay or not, and which the Board could potentially reference if and when we ever have to get involved in one of these situations again. These guidelines should address what is, as Hez put it, “game breaking.” We are planning to have a board meeting after the S4 Championship match, in which we will consider new proposals for changes in S5; if reasonably possible, we would also like to broadcast that meeting on Twitch. I invite anyone who has ideas to how resets should be handled, from how the coaches should handle it to what the standard of review should be, to submit such proposals, recommendations, suggestions, etc. to me either via DM or at I would consider them or present them on your behalf, depending on your wishes.

  4. Honestly, I’d rest the case just because this was a random glitch. It is no different from any roll in the game, especially those you cannot reliably predict, like an opponent making a mistake, or going leeroy when safer options are available.

    And that is under the best assumptions. Glitch in brain definitely happened. Either in programmer-QC pipeline or on user’s end. It is even safer to assume it happened on player’s part, as programming usually involves much strenuous testing, than a player making such a no-brainer decision. Both are likely, however it remains a closed Shrodinger’s box, until it is tested. And Caven does not have the test results (video showing him clicking to receive). So for the rest of the universe this is both a glitch by programming and a brainfart at the same time. However, a brainfart CAN be simulated and the only logical ruling in this place is to assume shit happens to all of us, and leave as less room for manipulation of inherent randomness as possible. Which would be the current ruling.

    Even if replay was on the table, it would be impossible to recreate the condition of the match. Given the importance of the coin flip, one could just flip the coin instead of replay again to determine a winner. The key issue here, is that that coin was already flipped when the glitch “chose” whom to affect. Do we need to flip it until Caven wins?

    There is no way to not feel shitty in Caven’s shoes, but isn’t this a part of core BB experience? There are plenty of instances chance influences our games regardless of our skills, starting with those coin flips to decide who picks starting positions, ending what do you roll on your first armor break. After all, you can maximize the number of rolls in your favor, but there is a huge difference whether your likely casualties come in at the start of your series, or at the end. And you cannot do anything about it, except managing your crises. In this case, Caven did not win his defense, and did not win appeal for the rulling.

    The current situation seems like a chaos coach losing a bashing game and trying to regain number advantage by fouling, without realizing that in his current situation he is far more likely to deepen the damage to himself, rather than the opponent.

  5. In both decisions in the palyoffs the board have made the thought process clear and logical and should be commended for that. Ultimately these decisions will always cause controversy as everyone has an opinion as we as coaches, are heavily invested in our teams.

    I’ve never checked but do replays show the kick off selections? Either way maybe a rule should be inserted that all league game replays must be kept, by both players, unless the coaches validate the result.

  6. First off noone disbelieves what happened to you Caven. To throw round accusations as you have done is disappointing. I have nothing but the utmost respect for you as a coach particularly after last seasons exploits.
    In fact we made pains to say we believe your side but you seem unwilling to look at it from any other perspective.
    Take a second and look at the alternatives and what they would mean. You’re asking for a reset of something that was effectively a coin flip. You continued to play to win. You took your chance the same way you would have done if you’d lost the flip. Yet you expect a whole game reset on the basis of a bug we have no control over. Just try to think what that would mean long term. Any coach would be free to request arbitration in something we as a group have zero control over.
    Where would it end? The only sensible choice available to us was effectively the crap happens rule. We don’t write the code and we can’t improve it. We all play within Cyanides sandpit and have to accept the tools we are given.
    Every single member of the board is gutted this happened to you but we’re unable to open this pandoras box for one occasion which we can’t control. What’s to stop it happening again? Where does it end?
    The board isn’t a collective of best buds but merely a group trying to do what’s best for everyone. I’m struggling to take the emotion out of this as it’s not easy when we simply try to help and are accused of being part of a crass and frankly ludicrously corrupt uber group. Additionally I’d be more than happy to chat about this with you as we don’t want there to be rancour and I personally don’t want one of our best coaches feeling like there’s an agenda against them. I’m here whenever you need mate.

  7. Well, it’s nothing personal and I already express myself about it, but:
    Seeking the draw in hope of having the toss on OT, waiting 8 turns to score, is just tossing the game. Royke showed that amazing stuff can be fulfilled with orks ; of course it’s extremely lucky, but what’s for sure is that you’ll never manage something you don’t try. I’m not talking specifically to Caven but let’s face it well: planning to win the toss is just a 50% chance. When a guy manage a 50% dodge on turn 8 to score without reroll, do you feel that it was well played or just luck?? If he manages it, it’s first because he dared trying it. I only saw second half so can’t say about first, but stalling until turn 8 to make 1-1 is a just a basic move that anybody could do, no genius in there. And I’m saying this being conscious that Caven or Sest or much better coaches than me. So because of that, show me your genius and don’t just manage your game to get 1-1, to finally have a 50% chance to win. To me, and I write it as a fan more than as a coach, this was disappointing. I just wonder why in this case the game wasn’t just tossed, as it was the result seeked. Again, no strategic dimension in my talking, just a fan expression. So yeah I don’t doubt about glitch, but if you don’t want it to happen, and then again you had 1/2 chance to lose the toss, at least try to score 2 TD in one half, it isn’t totally crazy to think, as you were -if I remember well- playing 11 vs 8 players after 2 or 3 turns so you could have counter him with a reasonable chance to manage. But for this, you at least need to try… Of course I wouldn’t say the same if it had been 0-0 at the beginning of second half. Once again, nothing personal and I wouldn’t allow me to give coach advice, just a winning behaviour evidence.

  8. No, I completely understand the situation. I am hypothesizing that if you can say 1) I misclicked and cannot be sure I didn’t 2) there is no proof that the glitch happened, then I feel the door swings the other way in saying the board sided with Sestonn because I have no proof that you didn’t. Doesn’t feel good, does it? For the record, again, I looked at my screen, made sure it said receive, and hit the button, then I am setting up to kick. To say I might not be sure I did what I did? That is as insulting as me saying you guys conspired, isn’t it? Again, I don’t believe you conspired. But, I have no proof that you didn’t. So, I have to take your word, don’t I?

    Now, lets address the error. How many playoff games have gone to OT in the MML? I can definitively say three, because I was in all three. In all three cases, the receiving team won the game, with the defender NEVER touching the ball. That is a 100% success rate. How much more game changing can that error be?

    As for playing to win. Do you think I play for any other result? My opponent scored in first half, taking up enough clock to prevent me from scoring in the first half, but not by much. I now have to score TWICE in the second half to win. So, I score quickly, giving him a chance to take the lead again? That is bad strategy completely. So, stop saying I played for the tie and OT. That was NEVER the plan. Stuntmandini, the game was played far above your level if that is the way you would have played, and it wouldn’t have gone to OT because Sestonn would have scored after the equalizer. Moot point.

    So, if I understand correctly, I had three choices. Disconnect after the bug happened, and be culpable for the disconnect and lose. Refuse to take my turns in the game in protest, he scores, and I lose. Play it out in good faith, which I did, hoping it would be made right. I WON the toss. That part is definite. There is no “IF” or 50/50 at this point. Now, the error kicks in, which I am aware none of us control, and Sestonn is given a HUGE advantage to win the game. Game changing advantage, since I should have had the ball and the onus is now on HIM to get it and prevent me from scoring. Again, of the OT games I am aware of, 100% success rate to the receivers. So, in all three scenarios, I lose. The only alternative, since Sestonn refuses to replay, is to appeal. With NO HOPE of gaining a resolution other than “Request denied. Game stands.” How fair is that to me, or anyone else this happens to? Can you dispute any of my scenarios?

  9. Brainfart? Seriously, now I am being accused of not knowing what I was doing? I believe the Space shuttle was tested over and over and over, but it still blew up, didn’t it. Programming and testing are not 100%. And I know exactly what I saw on screen, what I chose, what resulted.

    As for recreating the game, it is completely possible. Friendly match. I had 10 players, he had 8. The player I am missing I put into MY endzone and cannot move him. Seston puts his three in the endzone and cannot move them. I can only use 1 rr, since that is all I had, Sestonn had none. Coin flip, if I win, I receive, if Sestonn wins, he kicks. THAT is EXACTLY how the game would have been, had the error not occurred.

  10. Except I have proof that Sestonn had nothing to do with the discussion or decision. You were glitched I get it, but you don’t have proof. I believe you, but my belief in you is not good enough for a decision of this magnitude. Which is why my opinion would have stayed the same even if you could prove the glitch. We can not police Cyanides programming. I would need them to cut me a check for that kind of work.

  11. Read the opening statement. “We considered not even issuing a ruling on this” Right off the bat, it was not taken as a serious issue. I have stated again and again, that I DO NOT BELIEVE THE BOARD colluded. However, it was stated by several “maybe he misclicked and didn’t realize it.” “Brainfart” “countless literature out there on perception.” “Can we prove this was a glitch? DOES IT MATTER?”

    Those are ALL quotes from the coaches board, with the exception of “brain fart”, that in fact question my integrity of choosing receive. Does it matter? It does to me, and that should have been enough.

    A question that I see was not addressed is what were my options? What could I have done? One person greatly benefitted from this glitch, and one person was punished severely from it. Again, I put forth the success rate of teams receiving in OT. I can add that More_Shots and I played an OT game in Unquick and Dead, I received and won the game. That is 4-0 that I am certain of for receivers in OT. Can you dispute that it didn’t matter or affect the game’s result?

  12. The thing about brainfarts is you do not realize it happened at all. Nobody of us are safe. Geez, just get drunk to the ground and ask people afterwards what you did. I am not saying the brainfart happened, I am saying it is more likely than we care to admit. Personally, I believe you. However, feelings and, even less, beliefs should rarely affect decision making. Especially, when possible ruling includes highly asymmetric choices, I do not believe the situation is black-white enough to warrant the more cumbersome one.

    And regarding accusations of conspiracy, there is a much more common human flaw in play, than shortwiring of brain. Pattern recognition. To prove anything you’d need to gather a lot more data to prove bias of the board. The amount of data needed to verify a pattern just from outside is just not achievable in such small community. Not to mention your accusation fails basic Occam’s Razor to start with.

    IMHO you did most of the thing right, playing around the glitch, requesting a ruling. Afterwards, especially given a well-argumented exchange by you and board (which you lost for a neutral observer from a logical point of view), I think you have so much more to lose now than to gain. I mean, in your place I would not want to delve in this pile of bad emotions anymore and move on.

  13. To give a more dignified example of a common brainfart, take somebody who types fast and accurate (i.e. without typos). And somebody accuses him of a typo. He checks, does not find it. Becomes offended, because it is obvious he is good, last typo was years ago.

    The brainfart here is that fast typing is a thing of muscle memory. But our form (in typing speed) fluctuates, as most bodily functions. The guy was in such a good shape that day, he was typing faster than usual. Muscle memory did not account for that as it gave delays to pressing buttons at normal rates. Because presses require different distances and amount of effort, the rate brain gave commands to press resulted in two presses happening at the same time and the letter order mixed. The funny thing about the letter order, we do not really care about it when reading, as long as first and last letters are in the right places (you can find some text warped in this way to read yourself). Both knowing what you wanted to write and reading it would not have normally raised a red flag when checking. After all, typo is usually attributed to missing a keystroke or pressing the wrong letter, which is much more obvious when reading.

    I think this example is much closer to the type of brainfart which *could* have happened to caven. Being a pro coach, and getting to decide such an obvious thing whether to kick or receive could have triggered a muscle memory and consciousness would have kicked in only after the screen closed. After all, most of the time the choice is obvious and is made way before the coinflip even happens.

    We are all human and this stuff happens. Let’s not get offended that nobody is special in that aspect.

  14. ^^Great breakdown of why it could have been a perception error. By definition, stating that it could have been a perception error is not questioning an individual’s integrity…unless your definition of integrity includes the ability to perceive and remember everything 100%, like a human video camera…and if that is the case, then I don’t believe in anyone’s integrity.

    Moreover, this discussion of integrity is a red herring. It doesn’t matter if Caven is the most truthful person in the world. We refuse to take his word as fact because if we did that we would also have to do that for everyone else.

    Even further, it doesn’t matter if Caven remembered everything accurately or whether he told the truth, because the crux of the decision is that the Board decided that this was a glitch that coaches need to play through, like a glitch that doesn’t let you reroll double skulls (which has actually happened to me).

    Like I posted in my earlier comment, we do believe that we need to develop guidelines on handling these situations. We invite all to submit ideas regarding what those guidelines should say. But, for now, the glitch that doesn’t let you choose receive on kickoffs is not basis for invalidation of the game.

  15. Before I joined the MML, Dalt and I were playing a game against each other, and the game would sometimes pick a different dice on blocks than I had selected. I mentioned this to Dalt, who said something to a rebound effect on the controller. I thought about it, next game I played, I chose a die, and watched as it moved back to the first one. Rebound effect. Dalt was spot on with that. From that moment forward, I wait after every single roll, choose my option, make sure it is highlighted, press button. Every single time. Lesson learned, and all that. So, there was no brain-fart, there was no muscle memory issue. I didn’t even have the controller in my hand. I picked it up, highlighted receive, made sure it said receive, pressed button. I’m not claiming to be perfect, never did. But I am saying I know what I did.

    So, in effect, it’s a moot point anyway. I will respond to any who *think* they have an explanation other than a glitch. You weren’t here. You don’t know what happened. But, all of this has caused me to rethink my willingness to offer a replay if something happens. I can just refuse, realizing there is no proof of my opponents “power outage”, “kickoff glitch”, “failed reroll” or any other situation, because without proof, it won’t matter and the board won’t decide. Easy win. This is where we have the possibility of heading now.

    I’m done with this issue. I do reserve the right to defend my position, however. And I claim all rights from this issue to produce a league story in the form of Wrecking Kru vs the Board! 😉

  16. Caven, I like the Kru vs. Board stories. I find it funny ( Like the time Shots sabotaged my APO rolls)

    I just want you to know we like you and are sorry this happened. Ill also again publicly say I believe this was a glitch and I believe you did select receive. I hate that you get the short end of the stick on this one and I wish you luck in future seasons of the MML.

  17. Hez, it’s all good. I love a good debate over things like that. I also like to play “Devil’s advocate” to any point that is brought up. It promotes growth, both mentally and spiritually. I personally am a God fearing man, and try to live my life following my Savior. Sometimes, I follow the wrong path, which leads me to say things I probably shouldn’t say, but age has shown me that if you don’t say it, nobody will know that you feel it.

    I am sorry that you are a member of the Nefarious Board. According to OSPN, you have very little integrity!! I for one, don’t like reporters or their agendas.

  18. Well here are my 2 cents.
    1. Dignity vs Wrecking Kru was 1-1 at the end of regulation
    2. Wrecking Kru won the coin flip
    3. The video shows that Kru picked to kick
    4. Dignity’s player didn’t return from KO for overtime (Previous OT games have shown all KO’d player return for OT)
    5. The over time was played and Dignity won 2-1
    What I Believe:
    1. Caven picked to receive (he said so and I believe him)
    2. The game glitched and forced the Kru to kick
    3. The game glitched and didn’t allow Dignity’s player to return from KO
    4. Both coaches played the OT with the intention to win
    My Humble Opinion:
    I will start off with saying I voted against a replay. I feel the game was well played by both coaches and that even down to the last turn either team could have won. I feel that the glitch in blood bowl was something that nobody in the MML had any control over. Nobody asked for any of this to happen and everyone is working for a result that is as fair as we can come up with. We are all smart people and we are allowed to have our own opinions and this is mine. I am going to try to keep speculation out of this as best I can and rely on as many facts as I can. Again this is just my opinion and does not speak for anyone else.
    In my opinion I feel a glitch did happen. I do feel that the glitch was unfair to Caven and the Wrecking Kru. I feel that glitch also was unfair to Seston and Dignity. I don’t feel that the glitch impacted the teams equally. I feel that coach Seston did nothing wrong in this game. I also feel that coach Caven did nothing wrong in this game. I feel both coaches finished the game in a fair manner. I feel that replaying the game may help to right the wrong that the glitch caused. I feel it would be wrong to force Seston to replay that game when he did nothing wrong. It is my opinion that the glitch may have wronged Caven and that is unfair and something nobody had control over. My great concern would be if this league creates more wrongs trying to fix things. I know other will disagree with my view and that is ok. This was just my opinion. Nothing more. Thanks for reading.

  19. Absolutely the right decision imo, and its not even close. Can’t have a precedent like that floating about.

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